February 3, 2023

Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!

Be part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.

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Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2

Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that can revolutionize the best way the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR gymnasium and produce a long time of expertise from creating among the largest health expertise firms on this planet. They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that can assist you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.

All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators must have a ardour for the tech and trade they need to break into, and likewise to construct shortly and keep near the voice of the client to actually perceive what they’re loving and hating.

Let’s decide up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to one of the best ways to gather person suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.

Do you will have any small suggestions so far as the way you go about intelligently gathering that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, establishing a Discord? Or do you will have particular issues that you simply do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with gathering the suggestions?

Cix Liv: If you happen to talk with an individual, like, immediately, it’s type of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by means of 4Chan and speaking to somebody by means of their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?

if you happen to’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on all the things. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which after they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “properly, I believe it’s best to, you recognize, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I believe it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss if you’re chatting with their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Normally [00:02:00] the customers that you simply’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?

And also you’re normally getting not a variety of the suggestions of the those that simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t wish to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?

So for these, you’re gonna must, like, discover it anecdotally by means of, like, Fb posts or unhealthy opinions, and for this reason I’d at all times chase the unhealthy overview individuals. If you happen to’re constructing that client product to know what’s churning individuals from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I believe that getting these three views and possibly bucketing individuals in these three issues, is an effective method to iterate in your product.

Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.

Ryan DeLuca: And it feels like, I imply, the troublesome half, in fact is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you mentioned, low cost the unfavorable opinions, or when someone’s telling you one thing you wish to like clarify it. And moderately than get extra details about why do they assume that, and what would they like, how would we alter it? Generally you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the neighborhood as a lot as you probably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by means of, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us really within the gymnasium. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply making an attempt to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.

Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our type of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Folks that, after they do method it, it’s like this, you recognize, they’re possibly rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these individuals which can be a minimum of passionate sufficient to provide us the suggestions that we are able to take heed to after which iterate. As a result of it’s normally, it’s normally on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Admire that recommendation, man. That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Yeah.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you simply’re doing. So, um, not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm referred to as REK and we’d like to study much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you resolve to start out that and, uh, inform us a little bit bit concerning the product.

Cix Liv: The newest firm I began is REK. So it’s type of a mix of the 2 prior firms within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the most important studying was how can we attain the individuals outdoors the headset? How can we make it fascinating for individuals to observe? If you happen to mix that with health, which you recognize, is for my part the most important use case of headsets, the information means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as the rest in VR.

Yeah, really, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we observed. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when individuals used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.

So the typical utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However after they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the massive studying from LIV was we have to present what individuals are doing and we have to make it cool for different individuals to observe.

The largest studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the perfect retention. And, you recognize, I consider basically it’s the most important use case of HMDs. Um, so if you happen to mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you recognize what is basically sports activities. Proper?

I began this firm beneath this premise that, you recognize, sports activities are going to be the following huge factor. And the explanation I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it type of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And a variety of AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my good friend who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m identical to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?

Or like, “you wish to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the particular person’s already there. A basketball is, you recognize, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like expertise making an attempt to resolve an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?

So, you recognize, there was lots of people who had been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “properly that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re ultimately simply gonna churn out and do the true factor.” Proper? For this reason I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the last word purpose is if you turn out to be adequate at it, you flip into the true factor.

What I turned fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And after they present the way forward for sports activities it’s normally comparatively comparable. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you could’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you may’t kill your good friend in basketball.

Sci-fi films type of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities might appear like, and generally you don’t wish to combat towards the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply comply with by means of with it.

I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.

He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you recognize, one of many issues he’s at all times been actually occupied with is, what are legitimate use circumstances of AR that may really exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag recreation that received the primary place for an open pc imaginative and prescient contest final yr.

And mainly I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you recognize, like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we had been testing issues like Area Pirate Coach Enviornment.

So Area Pirate Coach Enviornment, it’s thirty by thirty ft, and it’s like a laser tag recreation the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we had been testing video games like that, and initially, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty ft precisely. After which the best way that you simply draw the Guardian with the Quest was an enormous nightmare. So it needed to even be even larger than that. And if it was outdoors, we’d must hotspot it, and it will solely work throughout sure instances of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other big factor that we observed, is that if you really bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.

It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It must be AR if you’re operating. When you introduce operating, there must be augmented actuality.

Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled really operating in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d must, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.

Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, if you happen to’ve performed any boxing recreation in VR and punched something, proper? I keep in mind I punched a desk one time and my complete hand was bleeding, however I didn’t notice till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”

Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.

Ryan DeLuca: There may be much less ache notion, so I suppose that could possibly be good and unhealthy. There’s an entire subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a cause.

Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually referred to as VR to ER?

Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Individuals are displaying them destroying issues or hurting themselves.

Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As properly. As a result of, yeah, such as you mentioned, like, when you try this one time, then you definately’re not interested by being within the expertise. You’re interested by hitting one thing. Similar factor occurred to me once I was, uh, I used to be enjoying one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as laborious as I probably might. Yeah, I’m not enjoying that anymore.

Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] operating, that worry turns into a lot extra realized.

Preston Lewis: Attention-grabbing.

Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The best way these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on prime of the particular person. Proper? But when that’s off by any important diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a good friend. And simply slam into them. Proper? I basically consider that when you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it must be AR, if you happen to’re like operating and doing stuff like that.

However there’s large, large challenges with AR. Probably the most apparent ones, if you happen to begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those move by means of headsets, they don’t really phase the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up taking place is that all the things renders in entrance of the particular person. So say that you simply’re, like, competing towards another person. Proper? And that particular person is there and also you wanna put a purpose behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the purpose must render in entrance of them. It could’t reduce the particular person out and render the thing behind them.

So it’s a must to do immensely sophisticated technical stuff to resolve one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same downside in VR the place it’s a must to, like, phase the particular person out. So it’s a must to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same particular person, the place the particular person is, after which it’s a must to be sure that the particular person is synced correctly.

After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the purpose that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small purpose, but it surely’ll render in entrance of the particular person, even when they’re, like…

Preston Lewis: That’s fascinating. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s fascinating.

Cix Liv: For this reason, you recognize, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a extremely easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the explanation we did spell duals had been, okay, you’re punching. This can be a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many largest issues for me that I decide as successful standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So if you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to know how you can play a recreation is extremely necessary. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper probability that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that must be, like, as slim as doable.

So we began, okay, you’re punching on the particular person, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the explanation it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t must render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t identical to, hey, we awakened and we had been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was based mostly off the constraints of the Quest headset. Proper?

Like, we are able to’t have objectives behind them. We will’t do all this different fancy stuff with no large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us had been simply, “properly, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s type of the explanation why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the best way it was.

Preston Lewis: Small little notice there for our customers, type of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with person suggestions and letting that type of information product selections. That was a superb instance you simply gave of enjoying within the sandbox of what the expertise can really do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as doable within the expertise. So, that’s good.

Ryan DeLuca: An enormous a part of REK, and why individuals appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to really watch it from the surface. What you actually put a concentrate on with REK, was making it in order that different individuals can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda capability?

Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any sort of serious obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Once you’re watching a soccer recreation otherwise you’re watching a soccer recreation or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digital camera existed in soccer and so they had all these partitions in every single place, you wouldn’t be capable to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which can be necessary, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you may’t do a variety of the shit that you simply’ve achieved in VR with all these cool environments. Principally the setting nearly disappears at that time. Proper? You possibly can’t have a fancy setting if you happen to’re making an attempt to spectate. So, I believe that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We might must render one thing totally different for the gamers contained in the headset than what individuals outdoors see. So, like, within the headset you’d see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?

Like, all these design selections that you simply’re gonna must make, that you simply wouldn’t must even take into consideration in VR, if you happen to’re designing deliberately for spectating. The final word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch just isn’t gonna be a spell duel recreation in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we had been simply, you recognize, what’s the most elementary factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on this planet can perceive? And yeah, that’s type of the place that got here.

We’ve been engaged on fairly just a few totally different recreation ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.

I don’t know if there’s the rest you needed to say about creating REK and like the selections that had been made round that.

Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we really went by means of the method of making an attempt to get into the LBE recreation and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…

Ryan DeLuca: Location based mostly leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?

Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we had been like, okay, Sandbox has all these places, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you recognize? So then we had been like, “okay, so we’ll ship individuals {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we had been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 yr outdated contemporary outta highschool making an attempt to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half making an attempt to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we had been simply, you recognize, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, truthfully. You recognize, we couldn’t afford to even attempt it.

So we’re going again to approaching it as creating client product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the patron facet. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our largest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you really get individuals to carry a headset outdoors? And I believe that’s an unsolved downside. And the best way I like to clarify it, in probably the most succinct method doable, is REK is [00:17:00] making an attempt to do to headsets what Niantic, you recognize, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get individuals to, like, consider their gadgets as nearly like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.

I do assume that sooner or later we might return into LBEs, but it surely’s seemingly gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you recognize, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you recognize, we didn’t have the cash to try this. Proper?

Preston Lewis: We’ve observed that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many belongings you’ve achieved, you and the workforce have achieved very well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising. We type of talked about the viral movies and issues that you simply did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks like it’d be simple to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to combat the notion within the early days, a minimum of that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy individuals.

However you guys have achieved simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even trying on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the workforce on making the tech look cool.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a superb level. So many instances some new VR health factor comes out or exercise recreation, and it’s identical to the worst graphics, the worst advertising. And clearly that’s not crucial factor, you recognize, in a variety of experiences. Like, we at all times speak about Minecraft, for instance, you recognize, beginning out extra pixelated type of stuff.

It’s at all times, like, man, individuals wanna look cool. Like, you recognize, such as you mentioned, it’s like no one needs to journey a Segway, however we’ll journey a cool chicken scooter down the highway. Proper? You recognize, it’s like the identical factor, only a totally different configuration. So, such a superb level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff appears fashionable and funky, that individuals wanna be part of it.

Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you type of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you will have the type of the dorky type of graphics and stuff, after which you will have you’re a hero shot. I assumed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually necessary, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that instrument of contrasting. Proper?

And displaying individuals, like, it doesn’t must be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve achieved a extremely good job with that.

Cix Liv: You’re speaking concerning the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.

Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.

Cix Liv: I imply, to be sincere, Meta is making it fairly simple, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry upfront. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so unhealthy that it’s taking down our complete trade.

I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a foul product, that’s taking down the complete VR area. As a result of if you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to individuals about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty trying Zuck avatar and, you recognize, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this area appear like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I believe it’s such a foul allocation of assets, and it’s such a foul search for headsets that it’s really hurting all of us.

Ryan DeLuca: A number of the commercials they make are wonderful. You recognize, after they present, like, what it’s wish to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this big factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?

As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they will make or break it, you recognize? And in the event that they do an important job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it might carry us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream needs.

Cix Liv: I’d look into the PICO if I had been you guys, I don’t know if you happen to used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is all the things the Quest 2 must be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s all the things the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as an alternative, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, but it surely’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already an enormous downside. I simply I don’t get it.

Preston Lewis: You talked concerning the AR, VR experiences that you simply’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences in the present day? And what makes ’em good?

Cix Liv: I actually like this recreation referred to as Blaston. I used to be enjoying it lots within the pandemic. So it’s a twin recreation, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these numerous velocity projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up changing into, is like, you’re having to do a variety of dodging… it’s actually lively. I believe I hit like a thousand energy an hour enjoying that at full depth. I actually appreciated that.

The perfect sports activities sort recreation in VR proper now might be Nock. So if you happen to’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you type of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.

I believe my largest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute elementary of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You can also make the perfect graphics on this planet, you can also make an important storyline, you can also make regardless of the fuck particle results which can be wonderful. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.

And you recognize what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. If you happen to take a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for probably the most opinions on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking utility, and so they’re not even within the retailer. And the explanation for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion technique. And the locomotion technique is mainly you operating in your fingers. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any respect. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s mainly like tag for teenagers. And the children are in there and it undoubtedly will get offensive lots, so possibly that’s why they’re not in the principle retailer. However it’s mainly children operating on their arms, yelling at one another. And that turned the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another and so they’re simply operating like this.

Preston Lewis: That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.

Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m making an attempt to reload a gun in one in every of these sophisticated type of first particular person shooters, I suppose my definition of VR, they’re all first particular person, you recognize?

However it’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m making an attempt to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little components of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m positive I might get good at, I’m positive if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d most likely like, you recognize, don’t have any downside.

However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.

Cix Liv: You recognize Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His authentic video games had been type of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would mainly resolve puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is mainly identical to Time Disaster on rails by way of, like, the psychological math and what you have to do. You recognize, you’re going from extraordinarily complicated, and dynamic and wonderful graphics into, like, mainly Cel Shaded Time Disaster.

It was his most profitable title. And, like, I believe a variety of recreation builders are mad about that. They usually go, ” why can’t we’ve got wonderful graphics? Why can’t we’ve got dynamic storylines? Why can’t we’ve got all this different shit?” And it’s like, properly, if it doesn’t really feel good, individuals are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?

Preston Lewis: You type of alluded to designing in recreation mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and other people keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade in the present day?

Cix Liv: Nicely, if I advised you that I’d be giving freely my secrets and techniques.

Preston Lewis: There we go.

Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged all the things.

Preston Lewis: High quality, inform us your first identify, then. High quality. Simply inform us your first identify.

Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual identify?

Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your beginning identify?

Cix Liv: I believe which you could type of, like, paint the image of what I believe goes to be the longer term based mostly off what I’ve mentioned prior to now. Which is, you recognize, low cognitive load, simple to know, cause to placed on the headset is lively, you recognize, fascinating for individuals to observe. After which the most important challenge in our area, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can let you know what number of instances I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety p.c of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”

Sincere to God, it’s like nearly each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you recognize, I can’t try this due to Fb platform management. I can’t try this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t try this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t educated to work outdoors, so it solely works in low gentle environments. I can’t try this as a result of, you recognize, the second you place a weight in your hand, it might’t detect your hand anymore. So you may’t quantify the health.” Proper?

One other huge challenge with growing for AR, is that you simply don’t have entry to the digital camera information, it simply mainly is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits an entire bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no loss of life digital camera in it, so you may’t simply phase gamers out. You recognize, there’s some like laser tag ideas that individuals have made with the Quest. They usually create this video and it makes it look so good.

It’s, like, “okay, there’s individuals of their workplace and so they’re hiding behind containers and so they’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking wonderful.” Proper? And then you definately go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is not possible”. Like, initially, you may’t flip off the guardian for the Quest until you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, individuals on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you may’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous challenge. After which I discussed the difficulty of, like, rendering individuals on prime of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?

So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You possibly can within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map the complete scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that individuals present are very conceptual, as a result of you may’t really do a variety of this shit.

The factor that’s aged me probably the most on this [00:28:00] area is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety p.c of something that you simply consider.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating, as a result of normally what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you recognize? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s obtained a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for individuals to get the headset.

And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you recognize, we’re caught in, uh, you recognize, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you recognize, we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of we’ve got to have some sort of method to do exterior monitoring of arms and fingers, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.

And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we’d like to have the ability to have mainly the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you recognize, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly might use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you recognize, as a result of we’re doing a variety of punching and slicing and actions, or they take care of occlusion as [00:29:00] properly.

So, you recognize, it seems like all the things’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you recognize, if we might simply get that in order that the sector of view is a little bit bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply type of like guess a little bit bit round, it could possibly be actually fascinating. However, such as you mentioned, these shared experiences are just about not possible with the constraints of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you recognize? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we would like? It could possibly be tomorrow, it could possibly be an announcement from someone tomorrow. It could possibly be three years from now and we simply don’t know.

You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding neighborhood. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding neighborhood, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s in the present day. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior recreation, but it surely might need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not a variety of traction prefer it did. They usually’ve taken a variety of that stuff away, particularly talking concerning the Quest platform, which is the most important platform in the present day, in fact.

Preston Lewis: The subsequent query was gonna be describe your good AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. However it feels like it’s staying inside the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s at present [00:30:00] obtainable. Making an attempt to future solid a little bit bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, if you happen to construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.

You talked concerning the spectator facet of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous necessary in Black Field VR. We at all times say that the good factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you could construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to really construct a title that’s type of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and then you definately gotta construct it once more. So, that’s big. We completely agree.

And never just for the enjoyable of the person, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes could possibly be wonderful. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so feels like the identical web page there.

After all provides you a exercise, in fact is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And mainly, simply, we have to one way or the other crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.

Cix Liv: I’d attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you recognize, the 2 essential focuses they’ve are health and video games, and so they appear to be taking health very significantly. There’s additionally a extremely fascinating cause for that, by the best way.

In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you may play a online game per day. And if you happen to can persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget, you escape of that limitation. In order that’s really one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they will persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget and never a recreation gadget, they will really escape of that limitation.

That’s a small factor I found by happening the trail of localizing to China.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, man, we’ve realized a lot from you. I believe we obtained like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll undoubtedly be our longest podcast ever, to date. So, uh, actually respect it. I believe to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard lots about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and a little bit little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?

Cix Liv: I suppose you’d must comply with my Twitter.

Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.

Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m keen to expose all the things concerning the previous of how I obtained to date, however among the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d wish to hold beneath wraps till we announce it. We’re undoubtedly going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re undoubtedly going to construct a companion utility that lets you spectate that. After which, hopefully sooner or later, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you recognize, all of the stuff that sports activities have.

I believe one of many huge issues I wanna go away individuals with, that’s one thing that, could be a light-weight bulb second. Is after we had been doing our exams, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been just a few various things that occurred that made me assume we’re happening the appropriate path.

Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who had been, you recognize, the boyfriend was going to go play towards his good friend. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came visiting to him, gave him a kiss, and mentioned, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was enjoying towards his son’s good friend, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you recognize, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he might see his son and he might see how he was enjoying his good friend and all this different stuff. And so these moments had been actually necessary.

However the factor that basically gentle bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, initially, that girlfriend could be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and enjoying League of Legends?”

Like, you recognize, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was taking place, as a result of she’d don’t have any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is going on. Proper? And so that will’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came visiting and sat down and performed a online game, regardless that it was, you recognize, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was taking place. And so my huge obsession with this area is that I consider if we nail this, that is larger than the complete XR area, as a result of it breaks out of the area like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.

And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities turn out to be larger than the complete area, as a result of it might get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, gentle bulb second. That is it. You recognize? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you recognize, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we take care of in our area is one other query. However, you recognize, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.

Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis we’ve got. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m positive our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as at all times, we’ll put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to get entangled in what he’s doing. Actually respect it. Thanks once more.

Thanks for listening to the VR Health Insider podcast. Are you aware of anybody that must be on our present or have suggestions? Don’t overlook to e-mail us at podcast vr health insider.com and comply with us at VR Health Insider on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. It’s also possible to be part of our Discord channel. Till subsequent time, hold creating and dreaming up the following huge factor that can revolutionize the world of health.